News & commentary about aerial firefighting, air tankers, and helicopters
Jerry Messinger got this photo showing eight water-scooping air tankers at the Santa Fe Airport in New Mexico on May 6, 2022. It is very rare in the United States to see eight scoopers in one place. Mr. Messinger said the tanker numbers represented are: 281, 282, 283, 284, 260, 261, 262, and 263.
On April 25 Wildfire Today reported that four water-scooping air tankers were obtaining water from Lake Isabel and dropping it on the Calf Canyon and Hermits Peak Fires east of Santa Fe. The lake is 8 miles east of the fire, which would be less than a 5 minute one-way trip carrying up to 1,600 gallons of water. A CL-415 can cruise at 233 mph. Apparently four more scoopers were ordered.
The aircraft are operated by Bridger Aerospace and Aero-Flite.
The photo reminded me of one taken in Europe in 2017.
The static display at Aerial Firefighting Europe 2017 looks very impressive with CL-415s from France, Italy, Spain and Croatia. #AFFEUR17 pic.twitter.com/UdqOJ9Wp2n
— Tangent Link Ltd (@tangentlink) October 15, 2017
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I was a co-pilot on Tanker B-30,a B-17 owned by John Elgin of AeroFlite from Cody, WY and we were called early in May of 1971 to Santa Fe and there were 8 B-17’s parked on one of the runways. Several were owned by Blackhills Aviation, several by Aviation Specialty’s, and I don’t remember who else were there. I didn’t have a camera, but it was the last time I saw that many together. It was quite a sight. I spent two years on Tanker 30, which is in the Pima County Air Museum in Tucson, now. Glad it survived.
Malcolm- Would you be able to tell me what the tail number of the B-17 was that flew on the 17,000 acre fire at Cherry Lake, on the western boundry of Yosemite National Park in 1973? I was on a hand crew and the memory of that plane dropping below us as we cut line on the ridge above is an enduring one in my mind. I would love to learn which tanker it was and which company it flew for, as I think I may know who it’s pilot was. Thanks.
Sorry, I left AeroFlite in Jan. 1973, for a corporate flying job. I did fly on several fires close to Yosemite and the Redwoods out of Porterville in 1971, though.
Are there archives or data on flights? I’d like to know about the B-17 on the Whitmore Fire in Shasta in 1978, and the late season lightning bust in Humboldt in 1972 or 1973 – my engine at the head, one B-17 and one PB4Y on each flank near Alderpoint – great teamwork. Thanks!
I’m curious … what’s the lake level like there? I’ve flown the CL215T …
CL-415s and CL-415EAFs ?
CL415s (1,600 gallons) Aero Flite, CL-215Ts (1,400 gallons) Bridger….8 x ~$50,000 – $60,000 a day = $400,000 to $480,000 per day…that’s before they fly!!! Great tools, but EXPENSIVE….you could get between 80 and 100 Fire Bosses per day for that…or only use 15 Fire Bosses to get an equivalent payload and pay the firefighters on the ground a lot more with the leftover ~$325,000 t0 $400,000!!!
Bubba Where are you getting your information for the daily availability rate? I have different numbers and info that only 6 of the 8 are on contract at this point.
Rate sheets are left all over the place at tanker bases…those numbers are pretty well known the industry…slow days on bases, you wander around and see what you can learn… 😉
What’s your info. Taxpayers deserve to know how much of our money is being wasted on inefficient tools to fight fires!!?
Spending the taxpayers (that’s you and me Steve and everyone else here) hard earned dollars to the tune of $450,000 per day versus ~$75,000 (15 Fire Bosses)….for the same capacity and ability to go to 7 more fires at the same time? If that makes you “LOL”, you have a sense of humor that is truly unique…
The CL-415EAF modification program consists of converting CL-215 airframes to turbines using Viking-supplied conversion kits and replacing all obsolete components. It features a new Collins Pro Line Fusion integrated digital avionics suite, Pratt & Whitney PW123AF turbine engines, and increased water tank capacity with a higher delivery two-door water drop system. The conversion work is done in Canada by Longview Aviation Services in collaboration with Cascade Aerospace.
Right there, all the newer and required equipment tells one what commands the pricing on whatever rates currently.
Aviation is expensive business….now maybe if there was some responsible forest management and RX business that burns in correct conditions….
Then the argument about how expensive aviation is…..could become a moot point.
Sure you could get FireBosses.. where are they?
Bubba…are there 80-100 FireBosses available world-wide?…if not, one can guess we are lucky to have what we have currently
Good questions Surfs….there are 24-27 Fire Bosses in the US…most of them are sitting right now waiting to go to work while the entire fleet of Super Scoopers is in Santa Fe and 6 of the 8 are on contract…that makes sense….Bill is listing a lot of interesting points on the 415EAF, but they’re still 215s with ew turbine engines that carry 1,400 gallons versus the CL-415s that Aero Flite runs that carry 1,600 gallons…”increasing capacity” from 1,300 gallons to 1,400….that’s LOL…
Bubba, Proof is in the pudding , scoopers are in NM for a reason. And your financial numbers are wrong for scooper cost.
Hey Flyer….I agree, you are correct, the scoopers are there in NM for a reason…Lake Isabel is close by the fires allowing for quick load and returns…scooper country for sure….but a Fire Boss is also a scooper so….when most of the Fire Bosses are sitting, why send the entire fleet of CL415/215 to one spot without throwing in a few Fire Bosses to appease the bean counters? Maybe the Fire Boss guys need to charge a lot more to be taken seriously? On you comment on pricing, the only way any of these CWN CL415/215s are significantly less than what I stated earlier, than you’re thinking of the CL215s that get sent south from Ontario at highly subsidized day and flight rates….When you spend $30-$40M for one aircraft, you can’t price less than what they’re pricing…the fire agencies in NM and AZ just need to know what a Fire Boss is…they likely have never seen one…
Bubba is spot on. With the cost of one CL415 you can get six Firebosses, then exponentially add Firebosses as flight time increases. The Viking CL415 EAF has a max water load of 1300 gallons, a Fireboss 800. Do the math. But a big airplane makes for big news PR I suppose.
By way, where are the Firebosses?
Barnabus, how often does a FireBoss carry 800 gallons? Everyone is quick to throw that number around but in reality it’s not a lot of the time. The average is probably more like 400 gallons.
Exactly…just like SEATs…loads corrected for Density Altitude, high/hot operations etc
I mean where do folks get the idea that 800 gallons is standard on every delivery
Guess S270 isn’t deliverin the info or folks don’t listen to the pilots….SHOCKING, I say………..
Five are currently on contract in Minnesota. Been a slow spring season this year. We sold our piston driven CL215’s after the 2014 season. Turbine conversion was a bit too expensive for the State and the MN DNR opted to contract for 4 (60 day) with BIA contracting one I believe for 45 days. The State of MN has had a contract for a FireBoss since 2007 but went all in in 2015. Cl415’s are still used on a CWN basis when needed and the State has agreements in place with Ontario and Manitoba for “quick strike” assistance when they are available and our initial attack needs exceed our contracted aircraft. They are all great aircraft and work very well in our neck of the woods. Been very happy with the FireBoss’s and the contractor Dauntless. MN Air Attack (recently retired).
Spot on flyer…you and I are on the same page for 1 of your 2 points…the scoopers are there for a reason…Lake Isabel is right near the fires…Fire Bosses are scoopers too, so why not have a few there? Why is 75% of the CL415/215T fleet on contract at HUGE costs when most of the Fire Boss fleet is sitting? Part of me has wondered openly if the Fire Boss guys just need to charge more to be taken seriously….guessing they’re not in NM and AZ b/c most of the fire agency folks in those states have never seen one work a fire….on your comment on pricing, you may be thinking of the Ontario 215s that come south at HIGHLY subsidized rates? Absent those a/c, when you spend $32-$40M per copy, there is no way you can charge less…
You could load a fire boss at 25% of capacity and it would still be far more cost effective than the 415s or 215s. The degree of ignoring basic economic math in this space is ridiculous. Someone on this thread should call for the supertanker too. That one is both super expensive and can’t hit a cup, but you all laud it in the name of not enough capacity. If you look at dollars per gallon delivered, fire bosses and type 1 helps are by far the most cost efficient tools in this space…
Thomas, the lake is a mile long and is at about 6,200’ ASL and the drops are at 9,500’ASL. Sending FireBoss’s to work there would be the biggest waste of tax dollars. They would be an absolute waste of time and money at those elevations especially with the winds they have been experiencing. The best bang for the taxpayer buck is sending the right tool for the job.
It would be interesting if the folks writing multiple strongly-worded, very opinionated comments, mentioned what their affiliation is. Do they have a monetary interest in promoting a particular aircraft?
Some are managers in various roles, I suspect. They see everything. Including taxpayers money (theirs,yours, and most importantly MINE) being spent. Like Bubba pointed out, it’s for public review. But most people are too lazy to see where and how their tax money is being spent.
I’m sure they don’t have paid sponsors like you do Bill, they just state the facts they see and don’t push a fake narrative, just for your comment section.
Bill, come on now. Are you trolling your viewers? I realize this is your page and you have editorial rights, but you and I and the rest of the world know Contract availability and flight rates ARE public knowledge. Sam.gov is a public site. As a USDA employee and taxpayer, fixed wing/rotor wing manager I see no issue with people questioning the clickbait, and asking why Dauntless, Aerial, and Fireboss LLC Fleets aren’t getting the same play Aeroflite and Bridger are getting. For the most part your viewers are intelligent; throw some respect our way and don’t censor out or belittle posts you disagree with. Mmmmmm
Side question. Do the Cl-415s ever land on water or do they only skim it? If the latter would the pilot need a seaplane rating?
Ed, you need a multi sea plane rating to fly a Scooper. When fighting fires you only ever skim on the water. Full stops are only done in training or emergency situations. Occasionally you may do a full stop just to clear the airspace for a fire recon, or retardant dropping or just to empty your bladder. Fours can be a long time going around in circles.
Wonder is any of the companies have pilot position openings.
“if any of the companies”
Yes, CL-215/415/415EAF land on water, and yes, they require a seaplane rating. Specifically, an Airplane, Multi-Engine Sea rating (on a commercial pilot certificate). Air Tractor 802 Fireboss airplanes also land on water, and also require a seaplane rating. Specifically, an Airplane, Single-Engine Sea rating (on a commercial pilot certificate)
“Skimming” or “scooping” is a landing in which the aircraft remains “on the step, or in a planing in attitude, akin to a high-speed taxi. In comparison to a land-airplane (eg, wheels), the seaplane on the step for a water pickup is somewhat like doing a touch and go landing. A seaplane which lands and slows enough to sink into the water and “come off the step” would be the equivalent of a full stop landing in a wheeled airplane.
Thanks. I wasn’t sure if any part of the hull touched the water or just the scoop. Is the scoop is integrated with the hull?
There are 2 probes on the bottom of the hull on the 415, one for each tank, with about 10 seconds on the water to fill.
The probes on the FireBoss are integrated on the floats and water is forced through piping to the tank. The FireBoss aircraft contacted in MN also have capability of on board injection of a gel product (Blazetamer) which can further the effectiveness of the drop especially in windy conditions or longer turnarounds. they hold about 40-45 gallons of product which is usually about 18-20 loads.
Ed, this article has a photo of the scoop.
Wow! It looks so small to be able to scoop as many gallons as it does in just a few seconds.
Mr. Fogle, Excellent question. I follow this post because my son in law is a forester/fire fighter. Really enjoy the aviation banter/reminiscing. We had a saying in the FAA, “no inconvenience is to small”. From the comments here, sounds like the USFS / Dept. Of Agriculture has the same mission statement.
Good to see some FAA representation here. Couple of my Plt Leader friends are ASIs in the Rotorcraft world in the Midwest
Hope you’ll stick around as an observer of the some of the discussions. Get some more FAA types (retired or otherwise) in on this website so as to see how the wildland folk and land management agencies work. It would be interesting, in the buzzwords of COLLABORATION, that the FAA would chime in once n while.
Here’s a short video of four Fire Boss planes in formation scooping on Rimrock lake in Central Washington last summer. It was the Schneider Springs Fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEDRiyPjs4k
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